Ep 176 – Reimagining Aging with Dr. Joseph Coughlin

Ep. 176 Reimagining Aging: Insights from MIT’s Dr. Coughlin

Patti: Hi everybody, Welcome to the Patti Brennan Show. This show is for those of you who want to protect,
grow and use your assets to live your very best lives. Boy, do I have a treat for you guys today. So
yesterday, we got a call from my dear friend, Dr Joseph Coughlin. Dr Joe is the director of MIT’s age
lab. This is a man who understands how to develop and keep relationships. And I could go on and on
about all the stories, all of the things that we’ve gone through together. I mean, you talk about a great
support, Joe, I’ll never forget. And I’m just going to tell you this quick story. I had to do a speech in front
of a very large audience of my peers, of colleagues, and to be honest with you, it was a bunch of people
in navy blue suits, you can imagine, right? 3000 of them, and I called you and asked for your
permission. It’s a hard room. It is a tough room, especially being a little lady from West Chester, PA,
right, a former nurse, no less so. Long story short, I called you and I asked your permission to use some
of the research that I had, that you had done at MIT’s Age Lab in the talk. And you said, Absolutely, use
whatever you want. In the call I said, Joe, I’m kind of nervous about this one. You know, it’s, it’s actually
really intimidating to be on the main stage. Do you know that this man to my right called me the day of
and said, Okay, let’s go through your speech together. What are you going to say? Pretend I’m in the
audience. And he spent the time on the phone for me to get the willies out and work it, work out the
words that would have impact. That’s what I call true friend.

Joe: Some people would have told you to mention everyone in their underwear, but that just makes you
nauseous.

Patti: You don’t want to do that at all, especially this audience, absolutely. So let me tell you how lucky we are
to have Dr Joe here. He he’s creating a new narrative of this thing called aging and retirement. Dr, Joe is
the author of the book The Longevity Economy. I wish I had my copy here. I have it at home. It’s all
marked up with all the research and the information. He writes in the Wall Street Journal. He is a regular
contributor to Forbes, Fortune all that stuff. It’s just unbelievable. He’s won more awards than I have
fingers than I have kids, etc. He’s so well respected and recognized in and outside of our industry, and
just he really gets it. So thank you so much for joining us today.

Joe: Thanks so much, Patty. And it’s always great to see you. And by the way, all those kind words I learned
as much from you.

Patti: Well, what a privilege it is to be on that board where we meet and talk about things. I mean, I can’t tell
you how honored I was to be invited to that because it’s really a great opportunity to brainstorm, to share
ideas, and to just kind of say, hey, you know, and sometimes it’s yes, I use some of my medical
background to say, this is what I’m noticing with our clients as they are getting as they are aging, and
what we’re doing about it.

Joe: Well, you’re an awesome member of our longevity Council. Now, as we look at how do we think about
preparing for longevity? And it’s not just about the money issue, it’s all those other things that go
together, where we’re going to live, what we’re going to do, who we’re going to do it with, and I have to
say that I think your nursing background actually differentiates you, because you’re able to bring many
different dimensions. You’ve got the wealth, but also the health, and also, frankly, the practical stuff,
which is even if you got the checkbook, yeah, you’ve got to figure out some other very serious things.
Absolutely.

Patti: Case in point, this morning, I mentioned to you I was on the phone with a client who’s who had a family
member who passed away very suddenly, and it’s a mess, and she’s overwhelmed. She doesn’t know
what to do, and all I could say is, don’t worry, we got this. I’ll help you. I’ll meet you at the condo. We’ll
go through the paperwork, and we’ll figure it out together.

Joe: I think one of the most important things you can imagine in a relationship from our studies is the ability
to say, I get you. That is, I understand you, but in a situation that you’re describing, I got you. And that’s
what people need at so many different life transitions in their life. Yeah.

Patti: it’s so hard because, you know, this whole process of aging is filled with uncertainty. And you know, it’s
it’s so hard because, and what I often tell people is, listen, here’s the deal. We’ve had the privilege of
helping over 1000 people retire, stay retired, go through all of the changes. You get to do it once. We
kind of know what works and what doesn’t work. And thanks to you, Joe, we’re also learning about some
of the things that we may not be aware of, in terms of what people can do to make it easier to be
prepared.

Joe: And I think that one of the things that people are not fully aware of is that, as you were kind enough to
mention my book longevity economy, we’re living longer, and everybody goes, Okay, fine. I got that in
the New York Times. I’ve seen it in, you know, magazines. But what they’re not realizing is that most of
us are hacking longevity. We run out of script, narrative plans after about, you know, be honest with
you, after about 65 we run out of narrative because after the retirement party, you know, the cruise ship
with about a norovirus, you know, all the things that we do, if you will. You know, in that first year or
two retire that just came in exactly, you know, we buy the new car and stuff like that. But after a couple
years, I’m amazed the number of people who used to go by the name Senior Vice President, that are
driving for Uber, not because they need the money, but they have nothing bloody to do.

Patti: I will tell you, I can’t tell you, the number of people that have been in my conference room. And I don’t
know what it is about the conference room, the tears that flow. One person in particular traveled
worldwide, was one of those senior VP people, and he said, Patti, I am so bored So we spent the meeting
talking about the things that he really enjoyed doing when he was working, what gave him his purpose,
and how that can translate to this new season of life.

Joe: I think you touch on that in your new book, Am I going to be okay? which is awesome. But being
prepared means not saying, well, let’s see. On Friday, I was a professor or a doctor or financial advisor,
but at five o’clock I retired. So on Monday, at nine o’clock, I am not figuring it out on Monday, but
frankly, figuring it out probably a few years before you know, not just making an inventory of hobbies
and things you would like to do, but if you laid the seeds and the groundwork for the organizations, you
might become a part of the people you might socialize with. So Patti, you and I have talked about this
before. You may recall, but I interviewed as part of prep for my previous book, 60 CEOs and the highest
concentration of retired CEOs the United States, Naples, Florida.

And so when I interviewed these guys, I thought, you know, they must have it made, because they’re
retired CEOs. They have got places on the beach, much to my chagrin, almost all of them had a full head
of hair and to be a little bit off color, when I went to visit their club where I was interviewing people, it
looked like a used Maserati car lot. And to be off color, their wives, strangely enough, were about 10 to
15 years younger than they were. So this, this should be retirement heaven, right? Yeah, out of the 60
people I interviewed, only two said they were happy. Why? I think it could be summed up best by the
one fellow that that was brave enough to stand up and say, you know, when I was CEO, everything
came to me. People came to me for information. I was the decision point, and they pulled out a wrinkled
copy the Economist magazine. I was back and threw it on the desk, and with a little bit of color, says,
Now all I have is this blankety blank magazine to give me information. So being prepared does not
necessarily mean only having the money to be financially secure, and frankly, even having the health to
be financially secure, but having the people, the things, the activities, to keep you engaged, and having a
next chapter of life

Patti: Exactly because that’s what it is. We need each other. We need people, and it’s, you know, whether they
answer to us or with us. You know, it’s just having that, that those people that you can, you know, hang
out with, get the ice cream. And this is, this is a bigger challenge than people realize. First off, the rise of
one person households is the fastest growing household in the world, let alone the United States, by the
way, regardless of age. So it’s not just about those older folks living by themselves. And secondly, we’ve
kind of had smaller families. Adult children are no longer either available or we never had them in the
first place. And just to put a punch line on it with your health background, you appreciate this a great
meta analysis with. Done in 2015 indicating that loneliness has the physical health impact of smoking 11
to 15 cigarettes per day. So this isn’t just about being nice. It’s a necessity.

And it’s I love the fact that you included all ages in that, because I remember one of my children being up
in New York living in an apartment by themselves, and they were so lonely, and would find themselves
going to, you know, a Starbucks, sitting in the Starbucks, just to be around other people. No, absolutely,
it’s a big deal, and it’s not fun, and it’s, I think depression is something that it’s just one of those things
that doesn’t happen overnight. It just begins that begins to plant the seed, and that makes it even more difficult to get out and do something different.

Joe: I will add a footnote for my gender. Men are worse than women. Women tend to have in addition to
working and caring and doing all the things that that women do, you know, as I, as you know, I refer to
women as the chief consumer officer of the home. Guys really stink at maintaining social connections,
because most of their social connection is in the workplace. So on Friday, when they retire, by about
Tuesday, they’re looking to their significant other, going, where are we going, dear? And basically she’s
saying, I don’t know where you’re going, but I’ve got things to do exactly.

Patti: Exactly. Yes, and that, you know, you brought up a statistic one time of the number divorces that are
occurring.

Joe: Yes, the so called Gray Divorce, the highest or divorce rate in the world is amongst the 50 plus. But by
the way, do you recall the reason for that divorce and who initiates it? It’s usually the wife. It’s usually
the wife. And frankly, we could have had fun with a PowerPoint slide. Is it about sex? No, about money.
Would have been a fine, boring financial discussion. No, the number one reason, he bores me. Wow.
And by the way, the Canadians, who I do a lot of work in Canada, great folks up there. They did a
similar study in Ontario. And you know, the Canadians have the reputation of being the nicer North
Americans. I’ve got about 40% of my family up there. I have to tell you, they’re not nice. They’re just
passive aggressive. The women came back with the answer. He simply ran out of gas. So you know the
bottom line is that, as my wife likes to say, you’re reading your own research. Guys have to work harder
at retirement than women.

Patti: So that is really interesting. What I love about your research, Joe, is that you look for the practical
application of the studies. I think that the one thing that, the one piece of research that I loved was that,
you know MIT, researchers have studied a number of factors that affect longevity. How long are we
going to live, including income, optimism and location. So can you really talk to us a little bit more
about that, income, incoming, inequality, etc?

Joe: We hear a lot about that in your income, dent tends to correlate with education. So in addition to
choosing your parents, well, income and education, if you will, are good correlates as to how long you’re
going to live. And the fastest growing group that is in the United States is 85 plus. But if you look at
who that is, they tend to have higher income and education. A lot of people are likely to say, well, of
course, that’s part of course, that’s part of inequality. Sadly, yes, on a large level, it is. But it’s also about
something else, education, I can guarantee you, as someone whose career is in Cambridge,
Massachusetts, is not about making you smarter, but it does give you chronic attitude.

Education gives you the belief, the faith that if I put enough effort into this, I can find an answer, I can
find the expert, I can get this done. It gives you efficacy. So it’s not about how smart you are. It’s the
confidence to say I can get this done. The income, on the other hand, provides you with the access to be
able to say, now that I know what I have to do, I have money to do it with. And of course, the other part
of it is, is that with money, you can also buy better food, better healthcare, access, maybe join that gym
and things like that. But Patti the most important number– And you may get a chuckle out of this, given
the grand work you do in finance — But I would argue, because I teach urban planning, probably that the
most important number in your retirement or longevity planning is not your 401, K, not your blood
pressure, not even your balance in your accounts. It’s your zip code. Where you live predicts your access
to the people, the services, the care, the Connect, social connections you will have it brings together all
those big and little things that go into a quality of life, frankly, at any age.

Patti: Wow. That is so interesting. And what I appreciate about that so much is that so often, as people are
retiring, we are having those conversations and they’re saying, you know, we really want to move. We’re
thinking about moving to Florida or somewhere warm, or what have you. And thanks to you, the
question that I always ask is, do you know people down there? What’s drawing you there, and what are
you going to do exactly?

Joe: I would suggest, and I think, and Patti, you actually helped me with us on one of our Longevity Council
calls. Have they thought about doing a retirement test drive? So a lot of people will say, I want to retire
to Florida or Arizona or, you know, God knows where, because, you know, we had great vacation
memories. The kids used to go there. Okay, great. But before you make that jump, I would go to Florida,
shall we say, during hurricane season? Yeah, or off season, sure. And rent a home, and by the way, not
eat on the beach at the cafes. That make you believe that retirement is going to be a vacation, but
literally, rent a house where you’ve got to make your own meals, go to public supermarket, go
schlepping and shopping, and then bring it back and cook. In other words, truly live there versus
thinking its vacation is going to be for 20 years.

Patti: Amazing. That is so practical. I love the part that you said, go there during hurricane season, go during
the summer.

Joe: Exactly, understand what it’s like to live in those locations. Because Not just do they have healthcare, of
course, places have hospitals, but as you know, as we age, are likely to be managing two, three chronic
conditions. Do they have the specialties that you need? Yes, exactly. Do they have the quality care that
you’re going to need, particularly as you age, and do you have the connections? Do you have the access
to those specialists also? Because, again, that’s what it’s all about. It’s people helping other people, and
you’ve got to have those connections to get things done. That is so interesting. I thought it was so
income optimism was another thing that you brought.

Joe: Yeah, one of the great studies on centenarians, done by a great researcher Tom Pearls over at Boston
University, revealed to me a number of years ago that his study of people who live 100 and over, one of
the first things they do in the morning is apparently read the paper. And he kind of put me, you know, he
set me up. He says, What do you think they read? And the joke by younger people would be, oh, they
read the obituaries. In fact, they read the comics. Interesting. But the other part is, is that another
amazing researcher. Carstensen out at Stanford, developed a theory around called socio emotional
regulatory theory there.( By the way, there will not be a test after this) but, but basically, it’s what our
parents used to say to us, which is, you know, “life is too short for fill-in-the-blank-for-the-negative-stuff. As we age, we start to filter out the negative. Now, it’s either because we have quote “wisdom”, or,
frankly, we start to realize the runway is getting short, and I just don’t have time for that. And so that
optimism can be a great benefit, because it keeps you chugging along. But I think people in like your
profession Patti is like, be optimistic. But let me show you where the guardrails are too, because that
same filtering out of the negative can also filter out that there’s a train coming.

Patti: Don’t confuse stable was safe, right? That kind of stuff. It’s interesting because as you were talking, I
was thinking about myself, what do I do first thing in the morning when I get the newspaper, Joe? And
this is probably not good information, the first thing I read is the horoscope. And what do my kids once
asked me. They said, Well, Mom, you read the horoscope every morning, I said. And they said, Do you
really believe in it? And I said, Only if it’s good!

Joe: Well look, you’ve heard me say this before. And even though I’m a social scientist, I would say the
horoscope is probably better than most economists, which is one part prayer, two parts witchcraft.

Patti: Wonderful. So you know what? I am very curious. So I know that you have this new book. It’s called
Longevity Hubs, I am the I love the your prior book, the Longevity Economy. Like I said, I’ve given it
out to so many people. Tell me more about the purpose of this book, what it’s about. It’s brand new. I
can’t believe I have a signed copy from Dr Joseph Coughlin!

Joe: It’s regional innovate, regional innovation for global aging. And it’s written, & co-edited by my good
friend and colleague at the MIT age lab, Lucio Quinto, and myself. But what it is, it’s making the
observation that this aging thing is not a problem to be solved. In fact, it’s an opportunity for investment,
for business, for society in general. And we invited a number of leaders in industry and government
nonprofits to talk about how the business of longevity is coming together in your region. And Boston
was identified by Inc Magazine, and they gave age lab credit. So I’ll take it. I’m not sure if it’s accurate,
but I’ll take the credit saying that age lab catalyzed, making Boston the Silicon Valley of aging society,
if you will. But there’s more than Boston. There’s also San Paulo, Brazil. There’s Tel Aviv, there’s Milan,
there’s Newcastle, England. There are regions around the world that are suddenly realizing that, hey,
we’ve got expertise in health, we got expertise in housing and biotech and whatnot, and together, they’re
coming and forming hubs of industries to serve their aging population, but then turning it around and
exporting that value to the world. And so it’s really turning aging from a problem, a global problem and
trend to be solved into a not just a market opportunity, but an opportunity to improve quality of life for
everyone at every age.

Patti: Amazing. Is there anything in particular that really bubbles up for you in terms of what you’ve learned
from other regions?

Joe: I think one of the things we’ve learned from other regions is that some specialize. So for instance,
Louisville, Kentucky, really specialized in the health aspects with Humana. In fact, Bruce Broussard
from Humana, former CEO, wrote a chapter really looking at how home care and the consumer products
industry and, of course, health insurance came together in Louisville to really identify that town as a
aging hub. And so specialty was one. But the other thing we learned is that it doesn’t have to be
locational aging 2.0 which is a global network of people wanting to develop new businesses in aging,
can create virtual hubs as well. So it’s really about what is that catalyst to have people realize that
something as obvious as aging is a global driver. Because look, Patti. I think you’ve heard me say this
before. You know, economics is forecasted, technology is hope and engineering, but demography is
destiny.

Patti: Wow. And Dr. Joe, I’m going to end it on that one. I can’t think of a better way to end this podcast.

Joe: Thank you so much Patti. You’re awesome. Great to see you.

Patti: I love learning from you, and then taking what you teach us and applying it day to day. That’s where the
real magic is. That’s where the leverage occurs. And thanks to all of you for tuning in today. What a treat
this has been for me, hopefully for you as well.

I am Patti Brennan, thank you so much for joining us today. Take care of yourselves.